Elizabeth Ellen: On Morality in Art, Women Aging in the Time of Social Media, Indie Presses, and Her New Collection “Her Lesser Work”
Elizabeth Ellen feels more virile, powerful, and sexual at age 52 than she ever has before, and she hopes the cover of her new short story collection Her Lesser Work reflects that. The cover, a bathroom selfie she took for her boyfriend which features the author from the neck down wearing a crotchless bodysuit with her breasts fully exposed, does feel sexy and a little bit alarming. It also feels unapologetic, antagonistic even, which is the overall tone of the collection. The stories in Her Lesser Work are disruptions to the every day and feel more real than anything else you’ll likely scroll through on your phone. They are the antithesis of influencer culture and they don’t seem concerned with garnering likes in the form of double-tapped hearts. The stories in this collection are concerned with morality and what it means to exist in public ⸺ online, in your community, in a relationship, at work, as a parent ⸺ though often they arrive at a moral standstill that illuminates the fallacy of good and evil. In a world that feels obsessed with clearly defining good and evil, Elizabeth Ellen’s book feels subversive and refreshingly divorced from moral politics. If there is anything that Her Lesser Work condemns, it is likely the mainstream literary world (or mainstream anything for that matter), and buying into the myth of virtue. This seems fitting as Elizabeth Ellen published Her Lesser Work with her own small press Short Flight/Long Drive, the books division of Hobart where she is also an editor.
I spoke with Elizabeth via email about her unconventional path to becoming a writer, the unattainable expectations set for women, on being psychopathically selfish for her writing, and her new collection Her Lesser Work.
Shelby Hinte: So first, I just have to say thank you so much for sharing the book with me and being willing to talk. In preparation for interviewing you I have tried to read a bunch of your previous work as well, which there is A LOT of! It is really impressive how much you have written. How did your writing journey begin and how do you manage to write so much?
Elizabeth Ellen: Thank you, Shelby, for taking the time to read my writing and taking the time to ask me questions. I greatly appreciate your time and interest.
Well, I started writing at about age 32/33 and I’m 52 now, so that’s twenty years of writing! When I was 32/33, my daughter started school, kindergarten/1st grade, so I was able to write during the day and then again at night when she went to bed. I had just divorced her father and she and I were living in a little apartment in Fenton, Michigan, and I’d just gotten a computer. I didn’t know anything about the writing world or the publishing world but something compelled me to write, something that had been in me as long as I can remember, something probably created out of my mother’s love of books/female writers/their lives. It all must have felt so mysterious and glamorous and emotionally intellectual to me when I was seven, ten, fourteen, looking at my mother’s bookshelves, staring at the photographs of these authors.
I have been financially blessed with time, and I have used that time to write. I got online in 2002 and figured out a way into the writing community, little by little, piece by piece. I don’t think I could have done it without the internet. I was never going to attend a university for writing, I was never going to get an MFA. The internet was my only way in. The internet has served as my mentor, my great-grandfather, my benefactor. I have been lucky. But beyond luck I have worked.
SH: I admire how unconventional your writing journey has been (especially when the dominating talk for a while now has been “MFA vs. NYC”). Who have been some writers that have inspired your work? Anyone you are especially interested in currently?
EE: In my late teens/early twenties, Bukowski was a huge influence. Not just his writing, but his life, and the movie about his life, Barfly. I remember very distinctly the “New York agent” who met with him and tried to lure him (in the film, not sure if this ever happened in real life) to sign with her and him refusing…can’t remember the speech he gives her but pretty sure something about compromise and art, blah blah blah, integrity, blah blah. That stuck with me.
A year ago I started curating a column for Hobart – Rejected Modern Love/Fucked-Up Modern Love (essays), which goes up every Sunday, and I have been introduced to many interesting writers through publishing these essays. I love meeting new, upcoming writers, helping them with edits/comments, sometimes mentoring them. Their energy is usually palpable and infectious and a reminder of the sheer joy and excitement with early, unpaid publication!
SH: This week I started reading Person/a and I love how you open the book with rejection letters (and a criticism from your mom). I am in the querying process for my first novel and could really relate to how frustrating it is to get these like super nice "I love it but I won't rep/buy/etc. it" rejections. Reading your work is so refreshing because it feels so honest and unashamed of calling people and systems out (specifically elite echo chambers like publishing and academia). Is it scary to call these institutions out in your writing?
EE: No, it wasn’t scary because it already felt as though they didn’t belong to me and never would. They were not for me or I was not for them. I made this analogy on Twitter (lol) recently and I think it’s apt: when a person doesn’t get into a fraternity or sorority, they shit-talk the Greek system. If a person gets in, they talk up the positive aspects, and there are, of course, positive aspects of the Greek system, specifically social contacts that can be used later for career advancement. It is the same way with literary institutions. I didn’t get into them so I shit-talk them. But I can see their value. They are valuable to many people. For career advancement. Just not for all of us. Not for me.
SH: In Her Lesser Work, there are a lot of references to the literary world, specifically the commercial literary world. In the story G.O.A.T. (which is one of my favorites from the collection) you write “[corporate literature sucks - sticker on Mac desktop computer on which this is being typed; who's the asshole?]” and then later, in reference to the narrator spending money on motel rooms to keep her phone away from her she says "I waste money on motel rooms. So I won't know when you text me and when you don't. (And by 'you' I mean 'the literary world' - fuck you.).” I don't want to conflate you with the narrator of this story, but seeing as Her Lesser Work and your previous books have been published by a small press, can you talk about where some of this distaste for commercial presses come from?
EE: Thank you for liking/referencing “G.O.A.T.” It was one of the most liberating stories to write or that I have written. In answer to your question, however, I would say “see above answer.” I think the distaste comes from the knowledge THIS IS NOT FOR YOU. Were I part of that system, I’d be singing its praises, I’m sure. But aside from the other reasons it’s NOT FOR ME, I think a very miraculous benefit to it not being for me or I not for it, is that it (the rejection) freed me, completely, in my writing. In the presentation of my books. In the presentation of myself. In what I can say. In what I can say in an interview and what I can say in a book. Being rejected from a community is ultimately extremely freeing, for a writer or artist, or anyone, actually. But there are, of course, costs. And I think for most people, those costs are too great. Or not viewed as worth it. But, YOLO, lol, I think it’s worth just about everything.
SH: Lol, speaking of YOLO, that is the title of another story in the collection. In it, a gunman breaks into a woman’s home and as she interacts with him, she recounts conversations about nihilism with her soon-to-be-ex-husband and thinks about socially acceptable literature her aging book club discusses. She also spends a lot of her time with the gunman thinking about sex. The whole thing brings up a lot of questions around “morality.” What place do you think morality has in art/literature?
EE: Oh, I don’t think it has any place. That’s the kneejerk/easy answer. Of course the opposite is also true: that all art/literature is about morality. Always.
SH: A lot of these stories (I have Plant Hospital and Snatch Shots in mind specifically) are about artists, specifically women, existing in public and having to present themselves, their art, and their sexuality in a particular way in order to not only be accepted, but to not be on the receiving of social backlash. These stories felt so textured and real (and honestly were a little hard to read). I think the effect comes, in part, from the way you incorporate other texts such as song lyrics, emails, quotes, soundbites, text messages, etc. throughout. It served as a consistent reminder that in the age of the internet, we don’t ever really exist in isolation. How do you think the internet and social media have changed what it means to be an artist/writer, especially for women?
EE: I want to go back to Bukowski. He was, what?, 50, when he started publishing? Something like that? He was an old, ugly motherfucker. And that ugliness was iconic. It was – to speak in today’s speech – his brand. It also somehow got him laid. His aging iconicity. It had a virility to it. a sexiness. A power.
For women, there’s real…terror, in the current culture, maybe always, concerning aging. And how aging relates to a woman’s sexuality (takes from it, diminishes it, allegedly, or that is the fear instilled in women, by the beauty product industry/commercialism/capitalism, et al). There is also this fine line/hypocritical way of viewing female bodies in the culture that is why I used the photo I did for HLW’s cover. Every time I look at TMZ or a famous female’s Instagram, mostly my takeaway is: tits & ass. Which is fine. If that’s what you want to project or part of what you want to project. But then there is still a clutching of pearls at an areola or the pubis being shown that I find a bit ridiculous. Especially given the popularity of PornHub, et al. like, on the one hand, we’re saying: I support a woman’s agency over her body, but on the other hand, how dare you go too far and show an actual nipple when you know you’re supposed to just reveal the skin surrounding the nipple! Horror! Have you no decency? No self-respect? And god forbid you’re over thirty and a mother and do that! It’s all just a bit laughable. And add to it the role of the female artist or writer and what she is supposed to do/be/exhibit to be TAKEN SERIOUSLY. How she should present herself. Is still….severely limiting (and in opposition to what the culture tells her will get her ‘likes’ and popularity). In 2021. As far as I know, only one person – Elle Nash – has thus far put my book cover on their social media. (not counting the parts of social media that disappear in hours.)
I think all this stuff – the almost-nudity vs nudity hypocrisy, different freedoms [regarding] ‘looks’ for men and women and sexuality and aging, “respectable” ways of being vs “sexy” ways of being for females, in particular – have always been around, but are probably heightened in social media times. And the fear instilled in women aging in a time of social media seems off the charts. I think eventually we’ll get where the body positivity movement is – re diet products, etc. - with the aging beauty products/procedures being viewed as…how are diet products viewed? As an insult? As trying to make a woman feel insecure about something that is very natural and beautiful in order to get her to pay money to change/fix/erase/blur? It makes me very sad when women close to me constantly talk about wanting facelifts/fillers/Botox because they can’t stand to look at their faces in photos, certainly not in unfiltered photos. This is all getting pretty off topic, but maybe it’s not off topic at all. It’s all tied to virility and sexuality and power, which brings us back to Bukowski. Haha. [on edit: I had no idea virility - Virility refers to any of a wide range of masculine characteristics viewed positively. Virile means "marked by strength or force". -was defined as a male quality! Damn! Sexist language! Why is sexual power a ‘male’ quality/characteristic?] I mean, how much time, how many minutes a day, are we thinking Scott McClanahan spends worrying about his looks? How much money is he spending on his face? Okay, maybe Scott is a bad example. Just kidding, Scott. Kinda. XO.
P.S. I feel more virile, powerful, sexual at age 52 than I have ever before, just FYI. and I think/hope the cover of HLW reflects this.
SH: I read somewhere that you missed having your book posted on [social media] next to someone's cat and after this interview I am hoping one of my chihuahuas will sit next to it so I can post a pic of it on sm for you :)
EE: hahahahaha love it!
SH: On the note of craft, your stories are incredibly textured which creates this sort of internet speed pacing where even the longer stories never feel LONG (like a slog, I guess). I am curious, what is your process like for writing a short story? Can you share a little bit about what it looks like from initial conception to final revision and how do you know when to texture it with outside material like song lyrics and, say, email excerpts?
EE: Oh, geez. I do horrible with ‘craft’ questions because I actively don’t discuss ‘craft.’ I don’t study it. I don’t ask people about their ‘craft.’ In the past when I hung out irl w writers who studied writing in schools I would walk away or put my hands over my ears if they started talking about this stuff because I knew it would fuck w me/my writing. Whatever happens ‘on the page’, happens instinctively. Or from what I’ve retained, subconsciously, from reading other people’s books.
I just write what interests me, what plagues or pains me or obsesses me at the time. I think you just have to follow your obsessions. In whatever form they take. And refuse any instinct to self-censor. Or to write a certain way. Due to current fads or fashions. Write for you. And you alone. Or that’s what I do. I’m really selfish, though. Like, psychopathically selfish. When it comes to writing. And keep remembering: YOU ONLY LIVE ONCE. YOU COULD DIE TOMORROW. Stop worrying what the fuck anyone else thinks! This is YOUR ART. There is no right or wrong. If you think in those terms (fads, right/wrong) you’ll put out very boring shit.
SH: Yes! Last night in my writing workshop one of the members mentioned her anxiety around sending her nonfiction out into the world because she didn't want to "expose" people in her life in a way that might illicit backlash and I got to thinking about your work and Elle Nash's work, which, even though it is fiction, feels brutally honest. A lot of my experience reading your collection was Oh shit, she went there! It feels like you are just totally unafraid to depict characters in all their unlikeableness (and not just in the liberal "acceptably unlikeable" way, but in the this might go against your morals/politics/education kinda way.). How do you "go there" (I am thinking about the cancel culture references a lot when I ask this, but honestly, could apply to any of the stories)? What advice do you have for writers who might want to tap into this level of honesty but are afraid to?
EE: I think I sort of answered it when I said YOU ONLY LIVE ONCE. YOU COULD DIE TOMORROW. This is your art. That's how I feel about writing. And I just feel approaching it any other way will result in boring work/not real art. You cannot be afraid. I know writers who are middle-aged and still afraid to put stuff in their writing because their parents will read it! what the fuck? I just cannot relate to that. At all. Then don't be a writer! If you're afraid of what your parents will think when you're 39, 42. seriously? I remember asking my grandfather what his parents thought when he joined the air force in order to fight in WWII and he said, "I have no idea. I left home at 18 and made my own decisions." I do think the current culture makes it a bit trickier, especially if, like most writers, you make a living through a university/academia, but that's a choice you have to make. If you work for a university you will not be free in your art/writing because you will always be afraid/looking over your shoulder, so I would encourage anyone really serious about writing to work someplace else. That's not an answer anyone wants to hear, because it would make their life a lot harder. But how bad do you want to be a good writer vs a mediocre writer? How much does your art mean to you? What will you sacrifice for it? Will you publish with small presses your whole life because that will offer you the most freedom? Most likely. Unless you're one in a million who gets a larger publisher without compromise? These are all questions you have to ask yourself. Hard questions and then when you have the answers, make decisions accordingly.
As far as 'likeability,' no one is likeable all the time and we all go through periods in our lives in which we're more or less 'likeable.' I think of Johnny Cash, a person most people admire, a very beautifully creative person, a very flawed person with the iconic split of devil (pills/women) on one shoulder and an angel (religion/family) on the other.
To put it terribly simplistically, anyone not wrestling constantly between doing 'right' and doing 'wrong' is full of shit anyway. Because we all are. To pretend otherwise is just bulllshit. No one is likeable or unlikeable. Or we all are both things. It's only what you're willing to admit to, cop to. So I'm not worried about likeability in my writing or in my characters. We used to think of intolerant religious people as viewing fellow human beings as unlikeable. That's something to think about. Intolerance.
SH: What other indie presses do you think people should be reading right now?
EE: I used to say NOON but I am kind of bored with it, tbh. I think you have to keep moving in art and that style has been done for a while now. I think Brian Ellis’s press House of Vlad is publishing interesting writers – Shy Watson, Jon Lindsey, etc. Um, obviously [NY] Tyrant was a big one to read. Also, Elizabeth V Aldrich (Ruthless Little Things) and Expat Press.
I don’t know. I wish I could go back to school like Tyra Banks and get a business degree and start publishing a lot more books because there are a lot of amazing, young writers just getting started and I'd love to be able to work with more of them. I’ll probably go broke doing some version of that and continuing to self-publish my own shit at the same time. But what a way to go broke. I don’t do well with middles. I do well with extremes. Excess or extreme deprivation. (funny how similar that word is to depravity, isn’t it? lol)
SH: I like that idea of following what obsesses you. I have been doing that more lately, mostly because I’ve gotten to a point where I need to not act on my obsessions so recklessly, so channeling them into writing seems at least somewhat healthier or at least less harmful to others. It’s a little scary though, following them and then being surprised by what comes up. What obsessions are you writing into these days?
EE: Yes, writing about obsessions seems a bit... well, it’s often thinking about something in our heads that is the interesting part - or the most interesting part. Currently I am obsessed with stand up - Dave Chappelle’s Sticks & Stones, in particular. I have watched it multiple times, have the CD in my car, and have transcribed it into a word doc. [I’m] studying it the way Hunter S. Thompson studied Gatsby. Incidentally, can I just tell you, I just googled ‘Dave Chappelle Sticks & Stones’ to remember if ‘and’ was written out or &, and it only has a 35% approval rating on Rotten Tomatoes!??! WHAT THE FUCK??? Damn. Just goes to show you, people don’t know shit. Trust your gut.
SH: I hear you’re going on tour soon. Can you share any details? Any chance you’ll be rolling through the Bay Area?
EE: We’ll be in L.A. July 7th, Elle Nash and I. We’ll be in NYC July 9th & 10th. That's all I know for sure right now.
SH: Last question, what advice do you have for writers that are just getting started or people wanting to get into running a small press?
EE: Have a benefactor or enjoy being very poor. Anything can be glamorous, even Kraft Mac n’ Cheese and Bud Light. Even a two bedroom apartment across from a KMart. if KMarts even exist anymore.
Elizabeth Ellen is a college dropout from the Midwest, as well as the recipient of a Pushcart Prize for fiction. Her stories have been published in Joyland, Southwest Review, and Harper's Magazine. Her first novel, Person/a, was chosen by Lithub as a "best work of experimental literature" in 2017.
About the Interviewer
Shelby Hinte is a writer and educator living in the Bay Area. She received her MFA in Fiction from San Francisco State University where she was the recipient of the 2019 Distinguished Graduate award. Her fiction has appeared inMaudlin House, Entropy, Witness Magazine, Hobart, and elsewhere. She is currently at work on a novel about women and vortexes in the desert. You can follow her@shelbyhinte_and read her work atwww.shelbyhinte.com
